Fascinating History of Bars and Pubs: From Ancient Taverns to Modern Social Hangouts

Hey everybody, it's Nancy May and Sylvia Lovely from Family Tree Food and Stories

we're digging into, well actually maybe we're not digging into, we're raising

a glass in this episode to some of our favorite roots and traditions.

One bite and well, in this case, one sip at a time.

Hey.

Yeah, we're drinking our way into this right we're gonna

talk about bars and beer.

Now I'm a wine kind of girl, but, I'm loving this beer thing because

we all wanna raise a pint, right?

it's like a catch a kind of thing, you know?

It's the Irish in me.

And, all the, slang words around beer is fun, but, beer kind of goes

together with bars, Better than peanut butter and jelly and, salsa and chips.

Pretzels and mustard, if you like, those big soft ones, Fred

and Barney from the Flintstone.

So my gosh, I don't know if the kids are watching those things today or not, but

there's something really just comfortable and cozy about sitting in a dark,

comfortable, not too fancy local bar that.

Brings you back to feeling kind of homey.

I don't know what it was, bars at home, who knows?

But it certainly reminds me of college for sure.

Well, actually I will make one statement about Fred and

Barney from the Flintstones.

my children and my grandchildren actually do watch these shows.

It's amazing because you can reach back in music and in shows

and in food and you can bring old kinds of things back into the news.

So, but we'll talk more about that later.

But, before we even had fancy, bars or any even bars at all, people made their.

Own, They were able to share stories and laughter and I don't know, there

just something about the spirit, you know, that's what we call it.

Kinda those tales they tell, and including me and you and everybody are little

taller than maybe reality might reflect.

Right?

it depends on how deep that pint is.

But I have a quick story 'cause Bob made beer.

Hmm.

My mom got Bob into making beer because one year at Christmas time,

she was trying to find some sort of gift for him, and she found one of

these Mr. Beer kits, which is tiny.

And so we made them and it was pretty good.

And he says, well, I'll just get refills.

Well, you can't do a refill for Mr. Beer, all the stuff that's

in it because it's, so tiny.

So it took us to the local beer making shop, which then turned into

the court, to the gallon, to the car, to the, the beer overflowed.

then we ended up in wine.

But, it was really pretty good.

And we had fun names for the beer because.

We named them after our dogs, our poodles.

So, but that's, that's a side story.

Beer, it's a very family business and is a very family thing,

especially when you're making it yourself and sharing with friends.

And you know, probably the iconic image that we all have in mind talking about

old shows, like, uh, the Flintstones and things like the old show, cheers.

And remember the byline where everybody knows your name or in some

cases, like when I'm traveling it's because nobody knows my name and I

go to a bar so I can be anonymous.

But it was an iconic show.

It lasted 11 seasons.

I think

Yeah.

11 seasons and I've been in the Cheers bar.

Boston.

it's a very famous place that people always seem to wanna go to

when there're a tourist in Boston.

It's on the corner of Beacon Street, a in Beacon Hill area, which is the capital

region, 84 Beacon Street, and you go down and it's, it's kind of dark and cozy.

It's not big at, all.

But, Yeah, it's kind of interesting.

There's a bit of trivia about that beer in that bar.

Well, the bar, not the beer, but on March 10th in 2009, the Boston

Globe reported that the longtime cheers bartender Eddie Doyle, with

a 35 year tenure, was laid off.

Can you imagine laying off your favorite bartender that's like, I don't know,

losing your best friend, but the owner at the time, Tom Kershaw cited the recession

and well, you know, come, gimme a break.

People are still drinking during the recession.

However, the block that the Cheers is on that corner there, they've actually

named it the Eddie Doyle scare.

Not the Eddie Doy scare, but the Eddie Doyle Square in his honor.

I think that's kind of a cop out in letting the guy go, right?

as a restaurant owner, your bartender is so key and I can't imagine you

wouldn't let something else go because it's about a bartender getting to know

their regulars, knowing your drink when you walk in the door, oh, so Sylvia,

you're gonna have a chardonnay tonight?

And I always mix it up.

'cause sometimes I don't.

But they always know and they always ask.

So I mean, that's one of the hottest employees.

Employees To find

After 35 years.

I mean, that's like ludicrous.

Why would you do that?

Uh, I had to be a venture capitalist.

That's all I said.

Somebody who's just thinking about money and not about, well, you gotta think

about money if you're owning a restaurant.

'cause it's pretty tough.

But still, that bartenders bringing 'em in.

Yeah.

but, you know, that brings to mind other places.

And one of my favorite stories that my son, while I was in Duluth, it

plays such a role in my life, right?

He told me about the Come on in.

That's K-O-M-O-N.

And it is a bar that at one time it started in 19, well,

1933 ended prohibition.

Right after that, the Come On Inn was founded and it's been an operation,

so many old traditions in Duluth, but it was so neat to hear about it

'cause I researched it then and a sign painter had painted murals on

the Come On Inn Walls that depicted.

Early crowds that would come particularly in the fifties when the

industries, the manufacturing industries, were at their heights.

the workers would come in, they'd get paid, they'd come in and They'd

drink their pints, and they would share their stories with other people.

And these murals depicted the history.

Talk about heritage.

Nancy's, what we're into.

Depicted the heritage of Duluth, Minnesota, and those workers

who are no longer there, those factory sites are no longer there.

And, I just love that.

I, I, the next time I go, I'm gonna go to the, come on in, let's do a field trip.

You know, it's funny 'cause come on, it sounds like a southern

thing, a pun on something.

And my sister, when I went to visit her in Oklahoma, I was giving a speech out

there in Tulsa area at one point and I'm driving out to see her and, we were

out one day driving around I see the gas stations that's called the Come & Go,

sorry.

shut your mouth, Nancy.

Don't say that.

But anyway, speaking back to bars, there's nothing that Bob and I

probably enjoy more when we're out on vacation or just driving or anywhere

for, overnight someplace is instead of sitting and eating in a restaurant.

We prefer to sit at the bar because the foods is usually the same anyway.

But there's something about getting to know the local color and the

local flavor, and we have learned so much and actually been accepted

as local locals in some cases.

And every Thanksgiving we would go.

For years we went up to Marblehead, Massachusetts.

And spent the weekend up there during the Thanksgiving weekend

and one year, this Pubby restaurant that we liked was, well, all the

restaurants are closed on Thanksgiving.

Right.

And well, especially in Massachusetts, even after hours because the blue laws.

But this one opened up and.

They had no food because the chefs were off that night, but they ordered

sandwiches from , the subway sandwich and they had them there and just

one bartender and maybe probably about 10 or 15 people came in.

But getting to know some of the local guy, I learned a lot about the

restaurant business just sitting there that night, which we talked about.

And it was quite interesting to hear how the stories have followed

the bar industry and the restaurant industry across the country, and

that's what we learned that night.

I'm listening to the far end and finally I, like I said, Bob I gotta

get up and talk to those guys.

And he said, no, you can't talk to them.

I get up and I walked in.

They were fabulous.

They opened up.

I said, well, this is what we've learned.

So it was pretty cool.

Bernie and I do the same thing.

We sit at the bar, people tease us about our chairs at the bar of our restaurant.

But, and this is a quick story and this one is a, has a bit of a serious

tone to it, but it just shows you how people open up at bars because I'm

credited with this person's breakthrough.

He had suffered a real tragedy in war and he couldn't write about it.

And I teach storytelling.

And we started talking one night and he had this moment of clarity.

Now he's been through several years of therapy, so I won't claim to, to do that,

to have brought him, through therapy.

But he's now in my writing classes and I meet with him regularly about

the breakthrough he had that night and he's now writing regularly and he has

such a story to tell, but I don't know.

It's just something about, and then you've got the bartender there.

That's why I like to do it in strange cities.

I can get to know the young people, usually although some of them are long

tenured, like Eddie at Cheers, 35 years.

But many of them are young and they're trying to make it, and

they're trying to go to college.

They're trying to do all kinds of things and they're working part-time.

I love to get to know those young people.

I'd love to take a trip just to do it.

Yeah, the two famous bars and restaurant, well, the bar slash restaurant in

Westport, Connecticut, where, I spent a lot of, time was the ship's

restaurant when that was closed.

Oh God.

, that's where you went if you were newbie to go to meet people and just sort of

hang out in the, with the local color is and the black duck, which has been

featured on diners, Drive-Ins and Dives.

And as soon as that happened.

There were lines out the street, you know, to the street, to the train

station, which is around the corner to that place, but the duck, yeah.

You had to be careful when you went into ladies and make sure you didn't fall

through because it was an old barge.

You end up in the Saugatuck River, but where are a lot of actually different ways

of, describing bars and, pubs these days,

Oh yeah, there are pubs, saloons, taverns, and each of them kind of

brings to mind something different.

like, what's a tavern?

You think about lodging and that kind of thing.

and then you have Miss Kitty from gun smoke.

And that was a saloon.

The old west, the swinging doors and many of them were really beautiful

and ornate with the swinging doors and the wood bar and all that kinda stuff.

Probably not so much as Miss Kitty and Matt Dylan and Gun Smoke.

many people are too young.

But it is actually on it's syndicated now.

Gun smoke is syndicated.

You can watch gun smoke.

Turner Broadcast Network probably.

Yeah.

So if you haven't seen Ms. Kitty in Guns Smoke, go take a look.

But, up in Massachusetts, where we moved from Long Island to Massachusetts, when

I was a kid in high school, The Old Inn.

Mattapoisette Inn had this pubby kind of bar.

Really?

They had a restaurant, but it really wasn't a restaurant.

You went to the bar there and on Friday and Saturday nights, it was dark, it was

wood, it was cozy, it was people wearing fisherman's sweaters kind of thing.

it's Massachusetts, new England.

It's old tradition and.

Beer, as I remember was predominantly was the drink of the day, but they

would sing old Irish, Irish sea shanties say that three times fast.

you can imagine like whatever they are, you know, I can't even do that.

I'm not even gonna try to make a noise that sounds like a Shandy.

But the fiddles and it was just great.

It was a good place just to hang out.

and get to know people and, meet with friends and just to have a

glass and chill out and then go home.

It was fine, but Mattapoisette Inn Massachusetts.

Yeah,

Have you ever thought how tavern kind of I, something about the word tavern?

I love going to Boston.

You, I don't go very often, but when I do, there's just this

old worldly kind of feel for it,

everything's old in Boston.

And I think of taverns, where you could find lodging in the old days and

have a pint and then go to your room.

You didn't have to drive home, you didn't have to worry about that.

But let's see here.

Now Samuel Coles Inn was founded in 1634.

but before that, Samuel was a Puritan who supplied liquor to.

His fellow, I guess, Puritans,

Oh

What a, what a hypocrite he was.

but there is the longest running tavern,

I'm gonna stop you right there.

Wait a second, but let's keep people guessing.

I'm gonna guess what is the oldest or longest established

and running working tavern

Let's have fun.

Yeah.

Hey.

So we'll be right back.

So Sylvia, we're talking about everything old taverns, bars, pubs,

and I guess you don't want an old beer, but we left everyone asking the

question, what is the oldest tavern?

Country.

That is still serving.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what is it?

Oh, are we gonna reveal it now?

It is the White Horse Tavern in Newport, Rhode Island.

and it's, the 10th oldest in the world.

let me just ask you this.

Where do you think the oldest continuous bar in the world is?

I'm gonna say it's somewhere in the uk.

Oh, you're close.

Ireland, of course.

Ireland.

It's called Sean's Bar.

SEAN.

Sean's bar and the picture of it.

is so cool.

It just looks like it's 1100 years old,

have to put a, picture in the show notes at the bar.

Ireland is where it

Alon Ireland.

Oh, I had a a stuffed toy rabbit called Loney So I'll think of, every time I

think of Loney, I'll think of a Aloney Ireland instead that's pretty funny.

An acquaintance of mine, has an Irish accent and he said there is

nowhere he goes, that he doesn't get a drink bought for him.

When he says, says he's Irish, the Irish were masters at, drinking a pint

and making up and maybe a little bit of truth to their stories, but they

are the founders of stories, the myths, the legends, all of those things.

It's so neat.

Ireland, I love that.

So he's got a real Irish pro then a real strong thick accent.

Yeah, I bet his magically delicious craft is pulling a pint outta someone for free.

I'm Irish.

Maybe I should fake it, you know?

yeah.

Sucking on the suds is what you would call, say, well,

that sounds actually perverted.

I probably shouldn't say that, but maybe it is a family show.

So I have a question for you.

You said that a tavern is a place that you could stay overnight.

is that the difference between a tavern and a pub

there's not a lot of difference from what I can tell, but, taverns

usually meant you had like a bed.

Uh, , they weren't fancy.

I remember reading about John Adams and some of the early American leaders.

They would share rooms.

, It was very common.

You only got a bed and then you'd go to the tavern, and now it's

not so much, but I just say.

My mind if I see something called a tavern, I'm like, oh, I wanna go there.

It's just something that brings back the idea of tradition and old.

pub is sort of more where I think of cozy, Tavern, I

think of, I guess New England.

Not any place else, but that's not necessarily true.

It's just a matter of what they offered.

Hmm.

Interesting.

But, bar feels kind of cold.

I don't like the name.

, It's a bar.

, It's where this symely kind of people go.

Not not the cool folks, but I get it.

a bar, we all know, whether hanging out at the bar, you're sitting at the bar.

But if somebody calls or establishment a bar, it doesn't have the same

feeling as coziness, I guess.

Yeah, and bringing in the idea of family.

I always think of pubs being places where you can bring the

family and everybody sits around.

I can just see jolly people remember in Titanic where they wanted to spend

their time was in the, lowest level

Mm-hmm.

help hung

out and.

Yeah, it was, it was very fun and it was very stodgy up, on top,

where the rich people hung out.

But, in northern Kentucky, there was a very powerful senator and there

was an attempt to say in, in law that you couldn't bring anybody under the

age of 18, say, I don't know if that was specifically it, into a bar.

And he was able to defeat that because Northern Kentucky

consists of small German.

Enclaves.

that was settled by the German families and pubs were where you

went to raise a pint, to cheer on the family, to cheer on anything.

and I think that is one of the reasons we have such a different laws now across

the country about children drinking

I remember growing up and, and we were not allowed as kids to go into the bar area in

restaurants unless you were a certain age.

So if you're young, you couldn't go and cross into that particular.

Reason.

So that, that's kind of interesting.

But pubs do remind me, of family because it's pub food, right?

It's cozy.

You bring the kids, they have the burgers, you have the fries, you have the steak

fries, it's not, it's not fancy food.

It's.

It's comfort food is pub food, I would say.

And, and so pubs and families, I get that.

there's sort of a core nostalgia to what goes on.

And beer of course plays a starring role in much of it.

I Why would you go and drink anything else other than a beer at, at a pub?

Do you

on.

do you.

I do.

And there's nothing that I, and well I'll go back to my early days in college.

I was not, first of all be pre-college.

I was not a drinker, did not drink, didn't have a drink, was nothing.

And my first week at school, I helped one of the seniors, a, a

girl, bring all Her luggage and whatnot, up four flights of stairs.

She said, you do that?

I said, sure, I've got nothing better to do, you know, from four flights of stairs.

I got some exercise.

And she says, well, let me buy you a beer at the pub.

We had a pub in the basement of the, of the building at school, and I

thought, am I allowed to do that?

Of course, I was allowed to do that.

She wouldn't be inviting me otherwise, and.

They served beer in solo cups.

They were clear solo cups, not red solo cups.

And I had half a beer and I thought I was drunk, but that was, I remember exactly

where it was when I had my first adult beer at college again, it was a way for

me and her to introduce me to others.

It was social, it was gathering, it was the connection.

A welcoming place.

So kind of like, cheers.

Yeah, well.

My underage drinking story, I went to Morehead State University and had never

had a drink in my life, and somebody invited me to a party they had punch Uhoh,

someone gave me a glass of the punch, and only memory I have of that night

is I'm pictured holding a giant frog.

I have no idea where it came from.

I have no idea where it went.

the good news is I had someone who was looking after me and got me somehow home.

Punch.

That is a

funny.

drink.

Punch.

Yes.

Yes.

But so back to beer, Sylvia, you know, I, I think the interesting fact is,

especially 'cause we're family tree food and stories, is that farms are so family

oriented and we kind of forget that in this day and age because you go to the

grocery store and you buy everything.

But without farms we wouldn't have hops.

And without hops we wouldn't have beer.

I guess there are other ways to produce it, but I found it was interesting that

a number of years ago I had heard that New York State was the largest producer

of hops at one time in the country.

They had over 60,000 acres in production.

Washington State now is the largest producer and they year, they yield

over 64.1 million pounds alone of hops.

And that was last year.

But can you imagine looking out and driving through the hills of upstate New

York and just seeing these hops growing?

We actually saw some hops growing locally.

When we first moved in here and it was, they were, they grow on long strings.

I mean, these were, it's like a vine.

It was fascinating to see.

So it was a small producer, but it would be beautiful to see those.

Anyway, it's, you know, versus different seeing the, the grape vines.

Okay, well, let me tell you, I'm not a beer drinker, so help me out here.

Um, an IPA and I hear a lot of people say they don't like EPAs.

Is that because of the bitterness

of the hops?

EPAs.

That's a different,

Oh no.

EPA is nothing.

Totally not that IPA isn't that great.

Okay.

You can tell I'm not a beer drinker, but full of hops, which brings

bitterness, And history because more hops was added in the ships that had

to go back to the colonies in India.

So it's India Pale Ale, I think is what it stands for, right?

so that that's because of the British colonies . And then lager is what?

Lager is.

You like lager, right?

It's milder.

I'm not an aficionado, but I do, I do enjoy a cold one every now and then.

You see, I just, I never acquired the taste, which is a good thing

because, you know, I'm a wino.

What, what can I say?

In Virginia, we were only allowed to drink beer as kids, you know, in, in 18 to 21

you had to wait for wine and alcohol.

I was like, really?

Come on.

I know anyway.

But anyway, we have, uh, gen Z coming along.

How are they gonna change things?

Well, gen Z, that's pretty interesting.

They, followed a trend and we picked up on it here at our house.

They enjoy beer, but apparently a, according to 2023 Gallup Poll, young

Gen, Z'ers Young, meaning that they're at least a day or two younger than us,

are actually drinking less alcohol.

But, They're going for non-alcoholic beer and it's amazing.

Non-alcoholic beer is the fastest, growing segment of the alcohol or the

drink, adult beverage drink business.

And I guess, I don't know, is non-alcoholic beer considered an adult

beverage or can kids drink a two?

I never thought about that.

I think psychologically our still wouldn't give kids.

Underage and non-alcoholic beer.

I don't think I'd do that, but we have, a couple ones that we actually

enjoy one of the fastest growing ones I think is, um, well, we like Sam

Adams and Heineken, of course Corona.

There's Guinness.

There's a bunch of, I like the new Guinness ones.

And then there's Athletica is the big brand that has really exploded.

I don't particularly like that brand at all, but

I have a question.

now they say that, you've got mocktails too.

That's really popular now.

We have a whole fleet of mocktails at our bar, but, premium beer

brands are seeing growth.

Now.

Do these brands, Guinness, Modelo, Corona, Heineken, and Samuel Adams,

they also have a non-alcoholic

Sam Adams has a non-alcoholic, Heineken.

Corona does.

I think Modelo, I don't know if Modelo does a Guinness does.

Miller does.

I mean, they all tend to, they've now jumped on the bandwagon.

But, you mentioned the premium beer.

We saw a beer the other a couple months ago, and I thought it was interesting.

It was made by some monks overseas.

Belgian monks, and it was in sort of a, a large bottle.

And I thought, well, let's, let's give that a try.

One bottle of beer was like $30.

I was crazy.

But that said, I did try it.

We did try it.

It was really, it was a dark beer.

It was very, very good.

And I might try another one again for Christmas or my

birthday, but it's something I'm gonna drink every single day.

$30 for a bottle of beer.

Like really?

But you said it was big, so maybe

it's worth it

You could get two glasses out of it, but e even still that, that breaks

down to like $15 a glass for a

beer.

Like, man, that's kind of pushing it.

I mean, you're a restaurant too.

How many, how much are people gonna pay for a glass of beer?

yeah.

One of my favorite things about beers though, uh, talk

to us about drinking songs.

100 bottles of beer on the wall.

100 bottles of beer.

You take one down, pass it around 99 bottles of beer on the wall.

How many people have done that to get to sleep?

just to get to like, yeah.

To get mom and dad say, let's sing the song or, or camp songs, right?

Like we felt like adults.

, Actually one of my favorite songs is a Willie Nelson song.

It's Whiskey for My Men and Beer for My Horses.

I

Oh, Willie, I love Willie.

songs and games, right?

Beer pong.

Now you know what that is, right?

Uh, you know, I've heard of it.

What is a beer pong?

Is that where you

You throw the, throw the ping pong balls in, the glasses and if you

don't make it, you, it's like you, you

get a drink kind of thing.

Yeah.

So anyway, I had learned the other day that my dad's alma mater in Dartmouth

was apparently where , the beer pong game started Yes, he did drink.

He had a scotch every now and then.

He wasn't a heavy drinker and he was a member of a, fraternity.

But if he had heard that, that's where the beer pong started.

First of all, he probably wouldn't even know what beer pong was.

He'd be mortified.

He's like, oh, not my school.

Yeah, dad.

Your school.

Yeah.

Where Animal House was all about, sorry dad, but anyway.

uh, reminiscing about dads.

my dad loved Papst Blue Ribbon beer.

That was the, he worked in the factory, in the early fifties, and that's what

he drank was Papst Blue Ribbon Beer.

I, I think you can still get it and like the, come on in.

I don't know, but, he had a big garage.

My dad was.

Was a wannabe farmer.

That's what he always wanted to be.

So he had a giant garage and, and the garage was probably bigger than

their tiny little house in a working class neighborhood in Lexington.

And he would go out and he called it his barn.

And you'd go out there periodically and there'd be all these paps blue ribbon

beer sacks of Paps blue ribbon beer cans.

I mean, he just loved it.

And I tell the story when the.

Preacher would come to the front door.

My mother would let the preacher in, and my dad would take off out the back door

with his beer and I would follow him.

So I don't know what kind of heritage that is.

But anyway, that's, we've had fun talking bars and brews and

telling our stories, haven't we?

Because

that's what it's all about.

what happens in the barn or the garage?

Stays in the garage with Dad and Sylvia.

So listen, if you haven't had a pint lately, please raise one and think

about family tree food and stories, because this one's all about bars,

, and well, a few suds along the way.

Every meal has a story and every story has a feast., But while you're feasting,

would you go to podcast Family Tree Food and Stories like and subscribe.

So you get updates on everything that's going on.

And by the way, we're doing some quick little video clips every

day on hints of what's going on in each episode on Facebook.

I think you'll enjoy those two.

There are a lot of fun, but every meal has a story and every story is a feast.

And I have to say, I think every meal has a better story when

you've got a pint in your hand.

What do you think Sylvia?

Hey, I tell you what, until next time, we'll, let's go have a. And you

know, actually Nancy, interesting.

People are actually sharing a pint on Zoom and other kinds of media like

you and I have never met, but we could have a glass of wine and just talk or a

beer, you know.

Yeah.

So raise your Frosty mug and remember family Tree, food and Stories.

Take care and cheers.

Bye-bye.